Coversation with a Zionist

First time you're right Amir
There's no such thing as Sudan Tribune, a complete hoax, intended to dupe reader who trying to get piece information about Darfur, therea are NO news website in english in Sudan. Just take alook at the website, poorly created, Fake article. Anyone who claim this as a source is an idiot
Freefaller

I can't vouch for the Sudan Tribune however, I've read newspapers from Sudan that are published in English [online] while researching for a long overdue piece on Darfur. (lol... I should get to work on that)

Nevertheless, our world of human relations is often murky lurking with fringes of gray strewn with overlaping shadows and nuances. In that precarious world there are obvious parallel and perpendicular motivations for keeping the pressure on Khartoum and emphasizing the genocide.

In a similar vein, the statements made by the Bashir government about covert designs to destabilize Khartoum as a goal to effectuate regime change are plausible on some level, but do not represent the entire set of reasons. The quarter of million murdered is REAL. It is ethnic cleansing and a horrible genocide. Nearly 3 million have been made homeless by violence, rape and plunder.

We must accept that half-truths must come into play - precisely, because they are most potent when there is a measure of truth present. However, we must learn to understand the underlying goals of all actors and work to expose the fallacies for what they are.

I don't think any intelligent and intellectually, honest person frequenting this blog see all Jews as the embodiment of evil and the nemesis of all things Semitic.

Everyone is aware that there is a cross section of beliefs, class and world views in Israel. Many of the progressive "voices" on this blog have repeatedly, acknowledged that the Israeli occupation doesn't merely, hurt Palestinians and Arabs, but also detrimentally, affect the average Jewish Israeli too. Especially, those lured to the settlements and the North with Zionist slogans and promises of social mobility.

Although there is social dividends afforded to the vast majority of Jews in Israel at the expense of the oppressed Palestinians nevertheless, their shares are comparatively crumbs thrown off the tables of the religious, commercial and military elite tables to garner their tacit and overt political support.

I don't dismiss that some Arabs hate everything Israel - whether as reflexive reaction to the oppression or not - just as no one can doubt there are Jews that hate everything Arab and Islamic. But, if you remember correctly, even H. Nasrallah recognized the sutures and plateaus of Israeli society during the war. In fact, he used those internal sociopolitical strata in a strategic manner to exert pressure on Tel Aviv.

Maybe if it was pure blind hate without a modicum of logic and political reality things would be simpler. Sorry, it is not that way. The contention of the resistance has always been plain, simple and clear - Give back the Land for a lasting Peace.

1) Palestinians were not Nazis, why must they pay the price for Europe's crimes
a.- why must they lose their lands
b.- why can't they return to their ancestral lands - Europe's refugees inherit their lands and they become the refugees
c.- Palestinians are not Egyptians Jordanians and Syrians, why are they paying for the 67 and 73 war?

Anyway, I just wanted to convey that Jews are not blindly hated nor do the animosity against the policy of European colonists living in Israel as Zionist exist in a vacuum. Israel is holding all the cards, has all the keys and all the weapons. Peace instead of pieces of lead all in the head please no more bled till dead.

So yes, there are Jews in Israel and elsewhere who realize that the occupation is evil and these progresive people are the seeds of a better future.

What is so strange about citizens of Israel and Jews in the Diaspora acting humane about the tragedy in Darfur? Maybe the average Israeli isn't as dogmatic as the think tank Zionists would want them to be.

Anamolous, what of the Jews expelled from Arab lands? What rights and recourse do they have? It's not just about "European" refugees. And when you say 'return the land' for peace, which land needs to be returned?
Ya'but | 09.17.06

Ya'but

Everything else you said and implied about the Darfur situation stand - the ratio of dead, the Israeli response and the muted Muslim outrage too. I just don't see the relation
between Darfur and the Isreali-Arab conflict. If you're trying to invoke the old adage "if you're Black take two steps back - whack smack and some flack for good measure" then I hear you loud and clear.

Shalom

PS,
Are the Black Israelites full citizens of Israel yet? Last I read, they were not required to participate in the IDF at any level, civilian or otherwise.

The Mizrahim? What is the percentage of them in Israel and are they the elite level of the society? The facts say around 20 percent and second class citizens.

As far as the recourse for the displaces Sephardi and Mizrahi what would you suggest? Many are still living in Arab countries even Iran has thousands. I guess they are trying to lighten the family in Israel - isn't that enough of a recourse?

Zionism has in fact been a detriment to these Levantine and Arab Jews. Zionism has always looked at the people of the East as inferior, including Jews from Arab countries. From the turn of the century, Zionists tried to bring Arab Jews to Palestine as cheap labor. Up to now, there are Arab Jews in Israel who are discriminated against within the Jewish population. [Let us whisper kooshim together and break bread]It is largely the European Jews who set the tone.

The rise of Arab nationalism and the forceful rise of Islam did not create a less problematic condition for diverse minorities, who have also suffered, but for the Arab Jews, it has been one of the most complicated stories, precisely because of the establishment of the state of Israel. For the first time in their history, Arab Jews had to choose between being Jews and being Arabs. So you see, the Zionism itself led to the woes of Mizrahi and Sephardi Jews living in Arab countries.

Israel is an internationally, recognized State with nuclear weapons. I don't see it going anywhere. Do you? Are there any hidden lands not specified in the UN resolutions compelling Israel to return that I need to know about?

You know Ya'but, often systems and concepts become greater than the people they represent - snuffing out the intial goals of their constitutiency and taking a life of their own. People have to reestablish their power with those institutions to keep them from going astray. I think this is the case with Zionism.

Ya'but: Anomalous,

My understanding is that the Ethiopians have been fully integrated. Those of age have, and continue, to serve in the IDF. I recall seeing pics of the wounded linked to one of Anti-Humus' little jingles.

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/CONCEPTS/aliyah5.html Shalom

Well, if I meant Ethiopians I would have said so. I guess you don't know about the Black Caribbean and Americans who call themselves Black Israelites living in Israel.

The site above was very vague and old and doesn't really go to the fate of Ethiopians in Israeli society - if that was my original question since it wasn't some harm but not much.

Ya'but: Anomolous,

Despite the UN resolutions, don't you sense that the Arab street is divided into 4 basic solution camps in regards to Israel and the Jews:

A) Return to '67
B) Return to '48
C) Return to '47
D) Return to Creator

How then will peace ever be attained when concensus will never occur, and while there will always be a significant militant camp that favors Option D (Death and Destruction)?

Some die-hard gun ho Zionists will never accept peace either. They are focused on an Eretz Yisrael, a greater Israel and don't factor in reason and compromise.

Option D, therefore applies to both parties, don't you think? These types of groups that harness such options exist not only in the two communities but most likely, everywhere. Nevertheless, the majority of the people, the moderates manage to rein them in.

Once a just political resolution is fashioned and implemented, a Palestinian state can also rein in these elements. The power vacuum and politico-social limbo serves as a petrie dish for extremism.

Whether a solution embodies two separate entities or one congruent State, one is in desperate need. It seems that the elite in Israel and the OT wish to maintain a pergutarory status quo - instead of reaching out for an unknown tomorrow fret with peace, they opt for the familiarity and predictability of war.

Take a chance, you have to be in it to win it.

Ya'but: Anomalous,

In Vegas, taking a chance is always easier for the high roller with deep pockets who can afford to lose.

Unfortunately, small ME sidebets have so far failed to pay off. Yes, there's peace with the Egyptian and Jordanian governments, but not necessarily with the street.

When you're talking about a country smaller than Lake Michigan, it's understandably harder to double down the land for peace bet, especially after being burned in Lebanon and Gaza. Look at the original partition map -- notice the choke point?

I think the next confidence building measure has to come from the arab side. Reigning in the extremists would be a good place to start.

Israel had to do the same early in its history when it became obvious that militant factions endangered the bigger picture. Israel had to come to grips with its terrorists.

Otherwise, negotiating peace is like trying to negotiate a contract with a schizophrenic. Sure he'll sign on the dotted line, but there's no telling what his fourteen other personalities have in mind.

Whisleblower: Ya'but | 9:50 am

...the Arab street is divided into 4 basic solution camps in regards to Israel and the Jews:

A) Return to '67
B) Return to '48
C) Return to '47
D) Return to Creator

the Arab street is definitely agreed on:

E) Return to Khazaria