The Two-State Solution Is A Problem
How the Palestinians will get a state: the Israelis will complete the wall and force them at gunpoint to pick up their own trash and deliver their own mail. The Arabs will live without mail and in piss and garbage up to their chins.They will complain about how the Israelis persecute them, when they aren't engaged in blood-honor-revenge shoot-outs. And that will be their state."
"yep, the israelis will wall off the palios leaving them to live or die by their own hands..."
Well, that's just it, aint it? Moderate people have been urging Israel to follow this sensible course since 1967! We continue to dare you Zionists to return to your legal borders and leave the Palestinians to their own designs - for better or worse. Wash your hands of the blood stains, which are ultimately, attributed to mostly, you precisely, because you are the power with overwhelming force and legal duties beholden to the Palestinians.
We continue to dare you to be daring and relinquish that which has continued to malign not only your internal society but your image worldwide.
It's the honorable and practical thing to do. Do it now!
______________________________
"The two State solution was never viable, and it will never be."
The Israelis do not want a two-state solution either, never did and probably never will. Instead, they prefer to keep the so-called occupied 'Judea and Samaria' in a status of perpetual purgatory. It is not the Palestinian territories that are being occupied by Israel, instead the logic inducts that Samaria and Judea are being occupied by the Palestinians. The Zionists maintain the same viewpoint on the part of the Syrian Golan Heights.
They refuse to annex the Palestinian territories because that would essentially, result in an one state solution. The calculation is to exercise perseverance and persistence in order to ploddingly, carve more and more Palestinian territory into Eretz Yisrael - the recounted Israel as depicted in the urges of the religious scribes.
Most Israelis and Zionists in particular see any state that is not totally or overwhelmingly, Jewish as a gross injustice because the Arabs have 22 nations and they have none. Israelis see any calls for a state including the OPT, [with its majority Palestinian and Muslim population] which avails equitable, universal and formal rights to all persons regardless of race, religion and sex as anathema to their existence - and would rather die then see the actualization of such a situation. When Zionist say they face an existential threat, it not bombs and bullets they are invoking, rather it is a concept of a state that doesn't have an overrunning Jewish population - it is the ballot they fear. This is what is at the heart of the Sampson project - they would rather die and do away with everyone then submit to the 'whims' of the ballot - ironically, conjuring the pejorative of being the only democracy in the region.
The Palestinians must continue to sustain their culture and national aspirations. Under no circumstance should they allow the Israelis to assimilate them, politically or socially, as was done in America, New Zealand, Canada, Australia, etc., to indigenous people. The Palestinians should live today so that their oppression may be found dead tomorrow - but some of course, will choose to die today so that others may live tomorrow.
______________________________
Let's review the demographics:
5.5 million jews in Israel.
1.36M arabs with Israeli citizenship.
1.1M arabs in the Gaza strip
2.2M arabs in the west bank.
Total:
About 4.7M arabs in "greater Israel".
Refugees outside "greater Israel":
Jordan 1.8M refugees
Syria 432K refugees
Lebanon 404K refugees
Saudi Arabia 240K refugees
Egypt 70K refugees
Total refugees outside "greater Israel": about 3 million.
That makes it approximately: 7.7 million Arabs [there are many ex-patriates throughout the world who may want to returen] versus 5.5 million Jews.
______________________________
"Your analysis is basically correct, except in the last paragraph. "Under no circumstance should we allow the Israelis to assimilate us"
It is most definitely not only a question of Israel. Muslims also want to immigrate to other countries like France and Sweden, to all EU in fact all the developed countries in the world. You must ask yourself why you are not welcome. When you say we shall not allow Israelis to assimilate us, what you really mean is, "we will not be assimilated into modernity".
If you want to emigrate to the Modern Western democracies, you must embrace their values and way of living. We don't want Sharia laws and ridiculous customs as coming to a swimming hall covered from top to toe. Never have heard about "When in Rome, do as the Romans do?"
You have two choices, either you must adapt effectively to the challenges of modern living in all aspects, scientific, economic, sociological and cultural. Or, if you don't like our values and way of living, fix your own countries, like Japan did and China is doing and stay where you are."
*****
I am not Palestinian, Arab nor, Muslim. Be as it may, your explication collapses precisely, because many people have maintained their culture and religion while embracing and excelling at the things you enumerate: scientific, economic, sociological and cultural discourse. The very Jews you espouse present a prime example of this process of modernizing while maintaining cultural and religious practices thousands of years old.
As an erudite person, Sweden, you must realize that it is usually a frustrating and fruitless process to attempt cross-cultural judgments - in light of all the subjective implications therein.
However, I am content that you agree with the post - and feel fortunate for the opportunity to redress the points you were having difficulty grasping.
______________________________
["Those very Jews you espouse present a prime example of this process of modernizing while maintaining cultural and religious practices thousands of years old"]
That was a good example! The Jews also have cultural and religious practices which was regarded repulsive and offensive, however,
1) They are not as repulsive and offensive as Islamic customs, from my point of view
2) The Jew was for the mostly meek and humble, nor arrogant like the Muslims
3) The Jews were competent, the Muslims are incompetent.
In spite of all this, my forfathers no doubt gallantly partipicated in the pogroms of their days.
So if the Jews have been so heavy persecuted and punished for their relatively mild repulsive religious practices (compared to the Muslim's), then the Muslims have something to look forward to in the next 1000 years…
That is called logic and reason.
It should be noted too, that it was when the Jews finally cast of their mantel of religious backwardness and embraced modernity they at last were accepted and welcomed in among the Western Democracies."
****
"It should be noted too, that it was when the Jews finally cast of their mantel of religious backwardness and embraced modernity they at last were accepted and welcomed in among the Western Democracies."
Your last post contains some sensible and historically cogent points. However, it seems that the assertion, that the Jews were 'accepted' and 'welcomed' into western culture once they shed their ancient traditions, is erroneous. In fact, Jews were mostly, rejected for modernizing, as evident by the pogroms and especially, the holocaust.
This rejection [spanning many centuries across many lands] was the catalyst for a resurgence of Jewish culture [many began to forsake their Jewish heritage]: learning Hebrew, taking on Jewish names [as opposed to carrying names and titles of their hosts] and other such Jewish traditions.
The Jews excelled as you attest however, this excellence sued the ire of the so-called modern world, which led to their persecution en masse. The irony of the situation in Palestine is that longstanding witch-hunts against the Jews somehow escapes them and does not instruct many of their current policies. A people who has suffered so much has the responsibility to ensure that their actions are relatively moral and that these types of tragedies do not repeat themselves.
This is the reason Israelis should wash their hands of the Palestinian problem [unilaterally, even if the Arabs or the west will not allow it]. Israelis should reclaim their good name - release the captives. Jews once sang and prayed for liberation - for life. They should not allow the outrages of the world to tarnish their souls and transform them into the tyrants that once tread upon them.
______________________________
"Then she adopted Zionist ideology, 'willingly,' no body but no body made her go to Israel, what ideology except love of corruption and total parasitism [brought her there?]. How many passports does she have? To whom does she pay taxes?
The fact that she willingly lied to go to Israel and live in Israel like a Zionist with all the rights and privilages (sic) and on here play the 'role of a Palestinian' - what kind of ideology is that? She, on all counts, is a traitor to Russia to Israel and probably more. Just because some body on a blog is 'baiting Jews and Zionists' does this say she has an ideology?"
The post brings up a number of important questions and observations. Foremost is whether the Jewish exclusivity institutionalized in Israel can stand? In addition, does this policy benefit the Jewish people in the long run?
As I have previously, inquired, how can Israeli officials determine to a degree of certainty who is really a Jew? What if the Palestinian refugees and those in the OT suddenly, converted to Judaism and made their heartfelt Aliya to their ancestral religious home Israel? Would a more equitable immigration and citizenship policy better serve Israelis and Jews in the diaspora?
What is the percentage of those who have attained Israeli citizenship in the Aliya that falsified their claims? Certainly, there exists a measure of ruse in the process.
Therefore, the 'Aliya' policy within the exclusive Jewish regime is fundamentally, flawed - it disguises a gaping backdoor that may neutralize - a vehicle of detriment - the very mission of this selectivity - Zionism. It is apparent that the requirements need to be drastically, altered to prevent undermining the purpose of the Aliya.
"yep, the israelis will wall off the palios leaving them to live or die by their own hands..."
Well, that's just it, aint it? Moderate people have been urging Israel to follow this sensible course since 1967! We continue to dare you Zionists to return to your legal borders and leave the Palestinians to their own designs - for better or worse. Wash your hands of the blood stains, which are ultimately, attributed to mostly, you precisely, because you are the power with overwhelming force and legal duties beholden to the Palestinians.
We continue to dare you to be daring and relinquish that which has continued to malign not only your internal society but your image worldwide.
It's the honorable and practical thing to do. Do it now!
______________________________
"The two State solution was never viable, and it will never be."
The Israelis do not want a two-state solution either, never did and probably never will. Instead, they prefer to keep the so-called occupied 'Judea and Samaria' in a status of perpetual purgatory. It is not the Palestinian territories that are being occupied by Israel, instead the logic inducts that Samaria and Judea are being occupied by the Palestinians. The Zionists maintain the same viewpoint on the part of the Syrian Golan Heights.
They refuse to annex the Palestinian territories because that would essentially, result in an one state solution. The calculation is to exercise perseverance and persistence in order to ploddingly, carve more and more Palestinian territory into Eretz Yisrael - the recounted Israel as depicted in the urges of the religious scribes.
Most Israelis and Zionists in particular see any state that is not totally or overwhelmingly, Jewish as a gross injustice because the Arabs have 22 nations and they have none. Israelis see any calls for a state including the OPT, [with its majority Palestinian and Muslim population] which avails equitable, universal and formal rights to all persons regardless of race, religion and sex as anathema to their existence - and would rather die then see the actualization of such a situation. When Zionist say they face an existential threat, it not bombs and bullets they are invoking, rather it is a concept of a state that doesn't have an overrunning Jewish population - it is the ballot they fear. This is what is at the heart of the Sampson project - they would rather die and do away with everyone then submit to the 'whims' of the ballot - ironically, conjuring the pejorative of being the only democracy in the region.
The Palestinians must continue to sustain their culture and national aspirations. Under no circumstance should they allow the Israelis to assimilate them, politically or socially, as was done in America, New Zealand, Canada, Australia, etc., to indigenous people. The Palestinians should live today so that their oppression may be found dead tomorrow - but some of course, will choose to die today so that others may live tomorrow.
______________________________
Let's review the demographics:
5.5 million jews in Israel.
1.36M arabs with Israeli citizenship.
1.1M arabs in the Gaza strip
2.2M arabs in the west bank.
Total:
About 4.7M arabs in "greater Israel".
Refugees outside "greater Israel":
Jordan 1.8M refugees
Syria 432K refugees
Lebanon 404K refugees
Saudi Arabia 240K refugees
Egypt 70K refugees
Total refugees outside "greater Israel": about 3 million.
That makes it approximately: 7.7 million Arabs [there are many ex-patriates throughout the world who may want to returen] versus 5.5 million Jews.
______________________________
"Your analysis is basically correct, except in the last paragraph. "Under no circumstance should we allow the Israelis to assimilate us"
It is most definitely not only a question of Israel. Muslims also want to immigrate to other countries like France and Sweden, to all EU in fact all the developed countries in the world. You must ask yourself why you are not welcome. When you say we shall not allow Israelis to assimilate us, what you really mean is, "we will not be assimilated into modernity".
If you want to emigrate to the Modern Western democracies, you must embrace their values and way of living. We don't want Sharia laws and ridiculous customs as coming to a swimming hall covered from top to toe. Never have heard about "When in Rome, do as the Romans do?"
You have two choices, either you must adapt effectively to the challenges of modern living in all aspects, scientific, economic, sociological and cultural. Or, if you don't like our values and way of living, fix your own countries, like Japan did and China is doing and stay where you are."
*****
I am not Palestinian, Arab nor, Muslim. Be as it may, your explication collapses precisely, because many people have maintained their culture and religion while embracing and excelling at the things you enumerate: scientific, economic, sociological and cultural discourse. The very Jews you espouse present a prime example of this process of modernizing while maintaining cultural and religious practices thousands of years old.
As an erudite person, Sweden, you must realize that it is usually a frustrating and fruitless process to attempt cross-cultural judgments - in light of all the subjective implications therein.
However, I am content that you agree with the post - and feel fortunate for the opportunity to redress the points you were having difficulty grasping.
______________________________
["Those very Jews you espouse present a prime example of this process of modernizing while maintaining cultural and religious practices thousands of years old"]
That was a good example! The Jews also have cultural and religious practices which was regarded repulsive and offensive, however,
1) They are not as repulsive and offensive as Islamic customs, from my point of view
2) The Jew was for the mostly meek and humble, nor arrogant like the Muslims
3) The Jews were competent, the Muslims are incompetent.
In spite of all this, my forfathers no doubt gallantly partipicated in the pogroms of their days.
So if the Jews have been so heavy persecuted and punished for their relatively mild repulsive religious practices (compared to the Muslim's), then the Muslims have something to look forward to in the next 1000 years…
That is called logic and reason.
It should be noted too, that it was when the Jews finally cast of their mantel of religious backwardness and embraced modernity they at last were accepted and welcomed in among the Western Democracies."
****
"It should be noted too, that it was when the Jews finally cast of their mantel of religious backwardness and embraced modernity they at last were accepted and welcomed in among the Western Democracies."
Your last post contains some sensible and historically cogent points. However, it seems that the assertion, that the Jews were 'accepted' and 'welcomed' into western culture once they shed their ancient traditions, is erroneous. In fact, Jews were mostly, rejected for modernizing, as evident by the pogroms and especially, the holocaust.
This rejection [spanning many centuries across many lands] was the catalyst for a resurgence of Jewish culture [many began to forsake their Jewish heritage]: learning Hebrew, taking on Jewish names [as opposed to carrying names and titles of their hosts] and other such Jewish traditions.
The Jews excelled as you attest however, this excellence sued the ire of the so-called modern world, which led to their persecution en masse. The irony of the situation in Palestine is that longstanding witch-hunts against the Jews somehow escapes them and does not instruct many of their current policies. A people who has suffered so much has the responsibility to ensure that their actions are relatively moral and that these types of tragedies do not repeat themselves.
This is the reason Israelis should wash their hands of the Palestinian problem [unilaterally, even if the Arabs or the west will not allow it]. Israelis should reclaim their good name - release the captives. Jews once sang and prayed for liberation - for life. They should not allow the outrages of the world to tarnish their souls and transform them into the tyrants that once tread upon them.
______________________________
"Then she adopted Zionist ideology, 'willingly,' no body but no body made her go to Israel, what ideology except love of corruption and total parasitism [brought her there?]. How many passports does she have? To whom does she pay taxes?
The fact that she willingly lied to go to Israel and live in Israel like a Zionist with all the rights and privilages (sic) and on here play the 'role of a Palestinian' - what kind of ideology is that? She, on all counts, is a traitor to Russia to Israel and probably more. Just because some body on a blog is 'baiting Jews and Zionists' does this say she has an ideology?"
The post brings up a number of important questions and observations. Foremost is whether the Jewish exclusivity institutionalized in Israel can stand? In addition, does this policy benefit the Jewish people in the long run?
As I have previously, inquired, how can Israeli officials determine to a degree of certainty who is really a Jew? What if the Palestinian refugees and those in the OT suddenly, converted to Judaism and made their heartfelt Aliya to their ancestral religious home Israel? Would a more equitable immigration and citizenship policy better serve Israelis and Jews in the diaspora?
What is the percentage of those who have attained Israeli citizenship in the Aliya that falsified their claims? Certainly, there exists a measure of ruse in the process.
Therefore, the 'Aliya' policy within the exclusive Jewish regime is fundamentally, flawed - it disguises a gaping backdoor that may neutralize - a vehicle of detriment - the very mission of this selectivity - Zionism. It is apparent that the requirements need to be drastically, altered to prevent undermining the purpose of the Aliya.
posted by Stern Gang at Saturday, September 15, 2007
0 Comments:
Post a Comment
<< Home